Comments on: Old chestnuts about the Karmapa and the Dalai Lama http://chagchen.org/2009/06/30/old-chestnuts-about-the-karmapa-and-the-dalai-lama/ Enlightenment or bust Thu, 04 Mar 2010 20:10:39 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Cone Beckham http://chagchen.org/2009/06/30/old-chestnuts-about-the-karmapa-and-the-dalai-lama/comment-page-1/#comment-1023 Cone Beckham Tue, 08 Dec 2009 20:04:16 +0000 http://chagchen.org/?p=752#comment-1023 Hi, Alex- I couldn't link to the article, but that's okay...you've summarized the points quite well. Here's a link that lays out the legal manuevers, at least through 2000, though with some bias, it should be noted. Interestingly, no one seems to have attempted to discredit some of these claims. I can't vouch for the veracity of the Indian Express...perhaps others can... http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/20000128/ian28040.html Hi, Alex-
I couldn’t link to the article, but that’s okay…you’ve summarized the points quite well.
Here’s a link that lays out the legal manuevers, at least through 2000, though with some bias, it should be noted. Interestingly, no one seems to have attempted to discredit some of these claims. I can’t vouch for the veracity of the Indian Express…perhaps others can…

http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/20000128/ian28040.html

]]> By: Alex W http://chagchen.org/2009/06/30/old-chestnuts-about-the-karmapa-and-the-dalai-lama/comment-page-1/#comment-108 Alex W Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:36:19 +0000 http://chagchen.org/?p=752#comment-108 Dear Sachara, I'm not entirely sure what you are getting at. By "linkage" I assume you mean what we usually call "lineage". And when you say "may not be the the said successor", I take it you mean that he may not become the next figurehead for the Tibetans in exile. Is that right? If I do understand you correctly, then I think the answer is "of course". But you speak as if there is a question of merging the lineages, and I myself would think that such a merger would be not just unlikely - it would be unthinkable. It is just not on the cards. That is connected with my point that there is surely no thought at all that the Karmapa would in any official way "take over" from the Dalai Lama - why should he, and how could he? But he *could* become the standard around which the Tibetans rally, just as Nyingma, Sakya and Kagyu people rally around the Dalai Lama now. The same applies, if I understand you correctly, to the question of "confusion of lineage". I honestly don't think that anyone who is familiar with these things - from HH Dalai Lama and HH Karmapa down to the likes of you and me - even entertains the idea of a "merger" between the Kagyu and Gelug traditions. The whole idea is utterly foreign. That does not mean that we can't all be friends! As to whether the Karmapas have always been non-political - I have seen that point made, but I'm not sure that history really bears it out. Then again, there is no sign that the Karmapa has any particular political ambition - all the signs are that he is motivated by the welfare of all beings, and by his responisibilites towards the Kagyu school in particular. Dear Sachara,
I’m not entirely sure what you are getting at. By “linkage” I assume you mean what we usually call “lineage”.
And when you say “may not be the the said successor”, I take it you mean that he may not become the next figurehead for the Tibetans in exile. Is that right?
If I do understand you correctly, then I think the answer is “of course”. But you speak as if there is a question of merging the lineages, and I myself would think that such a merger would be not just unlikely – it would be unthinkable. It is just not on the cards. That is connected with my point that there is surely no thought at all that the Karmapa would in any official way “take over” from the Dalai Lama – why should he, and how could he? But he *could* become the standard around which the Tibetans rally, just as Nyingma, Sakya and Kagyu people rally around the Dalai Lama now.
The same applies, if I understand you correctly, to the question of “confusion of lineage”. I honestly don’t think that anyone who is familiar with these things – from HH Dalai Lama and HH Karmapa down to the likes of you and me – even entertains the idea of a “merger” between the Kagyu and Gelug traditions. The whole idea is utterly foreign. That does not mean that we can’t all be friends!
As to whether the Karmapas have always been non-political – I have seen that point made, but I’m not sure that history really bears it out. Then again, there is no sign that the Karmapa has any particular political ambition – all the signs are that he is motivated by the welfare of all beings, and by his responisibilites towards the Kagyu school in particular.

]]> By: Sachara http://chagchen.org/2009/06/30/old-chestnuts-about-the-karmapa-and-the-dalai-lama/comment-page-1/#comment-106 Sachara Thu, 02 Jul 2009 09:30:01 +0000 http://chagchen.org/?p=752#comment-106 Hi Alex, (Pls keep this version and delete the previous one) About the Dalai Lama's succession issue, I would like to raise a question about the Karmapa's mission in his age-old linkage tradition. There are two points which show that 17th Karmapa may not be the the said successor. Firstly, 17th Karmapa is the spiritual leader of the Karma Kagyu linkage which is one of the four schools in Tibetan Buddhism while Dalai Lama is more belong to Gelupa. It is unlikely that a spiritual leader from Kagyu will "rule" the other schools. That does not only arouse a problem related to sort of "partisan" concerns. It is also a technical problem if you know under the name "Dalai Lama" there are quite a lot of resource that the title "Dalai Lama "owes". Also, it will arouse the confusion of linkage which means Kagyu's teaching may have to mix with Gelupa which would not be so easy when you have more ideas about how a company merge with another. My point is if we come closer to the "system" of Tibetan buddhist linkage; there is quite a lot of problem in this issue. Also in Karmapa's tradition, the position itself has a long tradition of being a "purely" religious leader and it has been recorded in several occasions that Karmapas have rejected the invitation from the Emperors to "rule" the Tibetan buddhism. As a buddhist myself, I understand every lama has his own mission in the religion itself. That is also my own wish that Karmapa can remain a spiritual leader that helps us in our way for enlightenment. Hi Alex, (Pls keep this version and delete the previous one)

About the Dalai Lama’s succession issue, I would like to raise a question about the Karmapa’s mission in his age-old linkage tradition. There are two points which show that 17th Karmapa may not be the the said successor. Firstly, 17th Karmapa is the spiritual leader of the Karma Kagyu linkage which is one of the four schools in Tibetan Buddhism while Dalai Lama is more belong to Gelupa. It is unlikely that a spiritual leader from Kagyu will “rule” the other schools. That does not only arouse a problem related to sort of “partisan” concerns. It is also a technical problem if you know under the name “Dalai Lama” there are quite a lot of resource that the title “Dalai Lama “owes”. Also, it will arouse the confusion of linkage which means Kagyu’s teaching may have to mix with Gelupa which would not be so easy when you have more ideas about how a company merge with another. My point is if we come closer to the “system” of Tibetan buddhist linkage; there is quite a lot of problem in this issue.

Also in Karmapa’s tradition, the position itself has a long tradition of being a “purely” religious leader and it has been recorded in several occasions that Karmapas have rejected the invitation from the Emperors to “rule” the Tibetan buddhism. As a buddhist myself, I understand every lama has his own mission in the religion itself. That is also my own wish that Karmapa can remain a spiritual leader that helps us in our way for enlightenment.

]]> By: Mick Brown http://chagchen.org/2009/06/30/old-chestnuts-about-the-karmapa-and-the-dalai-lama/comment-page-1/#comment-104 Mick Brown Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:55:21 +0000 http://chagchen.org/?p=752#comment-104 Terrific posting, Alex. It's a pity the Times site allows so little space for a proper response Terrific posting, Alex. It’s a pity the Times site allows so little space for a proper response

]]> By: Norma Levine http://chagchen.org/2009/06/30/old-chestnuts-about-the-karmapa-and-the-dalai-lama/comment-page-1/#comment-103 Norma Levine Tue, 30 Jun 2009 12:12:35 +0000 http://chagchen.org/?p=752#comment-103 Dear`Alex, Thank you for clarifying this for confused readers of that confused article. All you say is relevent and correct. Dear`Alex,
Thank you for clarifying this for confused readers of that confused article. All you say is relevent and correct.

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